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8/23/02 Friday's News Story DetailReturn to News Page

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Reports on Jaguar/10.2 (6C115) Problems with Both
Nvidia AGP + ATI PCI cards Installed

Last Updated: 8/28/2002, 1:00 PM

Note: There's reports that this problem only appears on systems with more than 1GB of installed RAM. (A reader posted in the forums that removing dimms so that only 1GB was installed solved the problem. Less should also work, but it seems that more than 1GB of RAM is one factor.) This must be why some but not all dual card users noted the problem. (Reminds me of the older bug in some 10.1.x versions seen with GeForce3 cards and systems with 1GB or more of RAM.) Hopefully this will be fixed in the 10.2.1 update. Until then, for those trying to run 10.2 with both ATI and Nvidia cards installed, one workaround to try is removing ram dimm (to run less than 1GB of RAM).
Update - on 9/18/2002 10.2.1 was released, and initial reports seem to indicate this has not been fixed. (I have a page of OS X 10.2.1 update reports.)

Several readers have report I've seen problems installing 10.2 on a system that had a Nvidia AGP card and an ATI PCI card installed. (The reader in the forum noted an error message Couldn't alloc class "NVDANV20Hal", unless he removed the ATI PCI card - he had an OEM GeForce3 AGP card + a retail Radeon PCI card installed - he tried zapping the pram, etc. but the only fix was to remove the Radeon PCI card he said. )
Here's the latest reader reports on the problem (with two readers noting they were OK with a mix of Nvidia+ATI cards).

(latest reports first)

(This reader apparently hadn't read the Friday 8/23 news page to see this problem first noted then.)

    " Mike, I thought I would send you a report of problems others may be experiencing when installing OS 10.2. I have a Dual 800 with an Apple Nvidia Geforce 3 card installed. I also installed a radeon mac edition in the PCI slot so that I could run dual displays, (Cinema display and a radius 20e).

    OS 10.2 crashes with a screen that says in many different languages that you must restart you computer, after the 10.2 install. When I remove the radeon pci card I can boot normally. I tried removing the radeon card and installing the software and then re-installing the radeon card, but I still have the same crash screen.

    I have installed all the latest drivers and firmware, still the problem exists. Both cards worked fine with OS 10.15.and work fine in OS9. I am wondering if this has something to do with the Quartz update in 10.2
    Thanks, Ron "

I'm not sure why many see this problem, but not all. (Not all readers had the problem, but as you can see here many did. Reminds me of the Quake3/GeForce3 bug in 10.1.3 that happened with 1GB or more of ram.)

    " Hello again Mike,
    Thanks for providing an awesome resource, by the way. I've been visiting your site for several years and have found it invaluable, especially when problems arise. I am attaching the Read Me from the Jaguar Install Disk 1. The last paragraph on the third page is the brief note about third party graphics cards. It is not exactly explicit in detail. [It simply says you may need to remove 3rd party graphics cards]

    I do have another item to add:
    In the process of trying to track down the cause of the error, I initially removed one of the installed DIMMs. I could get the system to boot the install CD with the ATI card in place and only 2 of the DIMMs installed. I was able to do a successful install at the time and I managed to install some apps and test compatibility. Eventually on a reboot, the gray shutdown/restart screen appeared and I was unable to boot 10.2 again. It was at that point that I removed the ATI card and found that I could start the system with all three DIMMs installed as long as only one video card was in place. I also noticed the "Couldn't alloc class NVDANV10Hal" error during a single user start. (A side note: the SystemStart command does not appear to work anymore in single user mode)

    I am curious what kind of memory configuration Bryan C. with the Radeon 7000 has?

    BTW, I have zapped PRAM, reset nvram (init-nvram), pressed the reset button on the motherboard, tried different DIMMs, etc. The problem keeps coming back to the video cards.
    Alex T "

Mixed report (one system not working, one did)

    " my home system, a G4/733/Superdrive had a GeForce2mx, Radeon 7000, and the original Radeon.... the 10.2 boot disk would not boot... I removed older Radeon card and the machine booted.... and 10.2 installed....

    on my machine at work G4/DP800/Superdrive, I did a clean install of 10.2 with a GeFore4Ti and an ATI radeon 7000 and it worked fine....
    Brooks W "

Here's a few reports that noted a Nvidia + ATI card 10.2 install going OK:

    " Mike,
    I had no problems installing X.2 on my G4 533 1.5GB w/stock GF2MX AGP and an ATI Nexus for the 2nd monitor. I did the move & install option w/custom setup (just BSD...). Works fine. HTH
    O "

    " Hi Mike
    I just wanted to let you know that I have had no problems with 10.2 and my GeForce3 and my Radeon 7000 PCI. Everything is working fine and I've rebooted multiple times with no problem. I've got a Dual800 with 1.25GB RAM (2 512s from OWC, 1 256 from Apple). Interestingly, I never had the problems with Quake3 that some people had with the same config.
    Mike C.
    System Administrator "

    " Hi Mike,
    Just to help you narrow down the issue, I have a GForce4TI AGP and a Radeon 7000 PCI running great under 10.2 in my 533DP. I did an upgrade install, not a clean install. Thanks.
    Bryan C. "

    " Mike,
    I too experienced the same issue. At the office, I run a DP533 with the stock NVIDIA 2MX AGP board, 3x512MB ram, Ati Radeon 32MB PCI board with an Atto UL3D connected to two 15k 18GB Cheetahs.

    ATTO is running 1.66 firmware and the Mac has all the updates via the Software Updater under both OS 9 and OS 10.1.5.
    OS X is installed in the stock 40GB drive.

    The machine will not boot with the ATI Radeon installed (haven't tried pulling the NVIDIA). Without the Ati board, it gets past the gray screen (Gray Apple logo with a spinning wheel underneath) then gets to a screen asking me to restart the computer in 8 different languages.

    " Mike,
    Love the site, thought I'd toss in my 2 cents for what its worth. On my brand new DP 1 GHZ with GF4 TI all is fine, added my radeon pci to the pci slot right beside the agp slot and bamo, rebooting results in black video on both screens, no video, nuttin nada, reset pram battery, same results, pulled radeon pci, left single monitor on gf4 ti, booted, bamo just fine... Wonder if it is a ATI/Nvidia/Apple issue? One or all 3, who knows, oh well I guess that radeon pci card goes back into my beige; which btw runs great on 10.2...
    Sandy "

Strangely, one Dual G4/800 owner said he's seeing the same thing with only a GF3 AGP card installed (no PCI graphics cards installed) Almost reminds me of that odd Quake3/GF3 bug with 10.1.3 that only happened with systems that had 1GB or more of ram. (Removing a dimm to reduce ram below 1GB solved the problem.)

    " Hi Mike,
    I have very important information concerning Jaguar compatibility with some very recent Macs.

    My machines in question are G4 533DP and G4 733 Digital Audio models, purchased May 2001. Both machines are updated to v. 4.2.8 firmware, 3 X 512MB (identical modules from the same vendor), and each has an Apple/Nvidia GeForce2MX AGP card and a Radeon PCI (original) card. The 533DP also has an Adaptec 2930 SCSI card installed but there are currently no devices on the SCSI bus.

    Rather than go into great detail about how I came to discover, troubleshoot, and resolve the issue, here is the bottom line: the shipping version of Jaguar will experience kernel panic during startup with this combination of video cards installed. An average user with this setup (available as a BTO option at the time) will not be able to install or run Jaguar. This apparently is a know bug with this build and was released anyway. The fix will have to come in the form of a completely new bootable Install Disk.

    I verified all of this. I was able to boot, install and run Jaguar without one of the video cards installed. The Radeon PCI worked fine. The GeForce2MX worked fine.

    Among the other things I checked during this process was each DIMM, external peripherals and the SCSI card on the 533DP. The only anomaly I found along the way is that the Apple System Profiler report this machine as having four DIMM slots instead of three (this is what open firmware reports also).

    I was able to speak with an individual who is "in the loop" (pun intended) so to speak and they were familiar with the problem I had encountered. It was from them I learned that this is a known issue. Also, the work around they suggested is partially successful once you have Jaguar installed. If you hold down the shift key during boot some kernel extensions will be disabled and you will boot in "safe mode". I could not find any documentation on "safe mode' on Apples site or in the Jaguar Help. In any case, I can see from the jerky Screen Effects that, at minimum, you lose graphics acceleration when booted in "safe mode". It is basically useless as a work environment.

    To me this is a very big issue. It appears Apple knowingly released an product that completely fails at what it is advertised to do (install and run on these machines). Had I known the version I pre-ordered would not run on these machines I would not have made the purchase at this time.
    Alex T. "

Hopefully later builds than 6C115 (the shipping 10.2 version) fixes this issue.

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